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Writer, entrepreneur, and activist Rachel Elizabeth Cargle discusses her Akron roots; the viral photo that served as a catalyst for her deeper exploration of intersectional feminism; how she improves her own writing by studying her literary ancestors; her thoughts on the state of the publishing industry, especially for writers of color; how she makes use of a robust social media following; the importance of celebrating marginalized voices; how and why she founded Elizabeth’s Bookshop & Writing Centre in Akron; and why community building is imperative to the health and success of independent bookstores.
Books Rachel recommends in this episode:
- Chlorine Sky by Mahogany L. Brown
- Grown by Tiffany Jackson
- Listening with My Heart by Gabi Garcia and Ying Hui Tan
- I Promise by Lebron James and Niña Mata
- You Matter by Christian Robinson
Discussed in this episode:
- Akron-Summit County Public Library
- 2017 Women’s March
- Ida B. Wells
- Toni Morrison
- Maya Angelou
- Joan Didion
Laura Maylene Walter (00:02): Welcome to Page Count presented by the Ohio Center for the Book at Cleveland public library. This podcast celebrates authors, illustrators, librarians, booksellers, literary advocates, and readers in and from the state of Ohio. I'm your host, Laura Maylene Walter, the Ohio Center for the Book Fellow and author of the novel BODY OF STARS. Laura Maylene Walter (00:28): Today, we're speaking with Rachel Elizabeth Cargle, an Akron, Ohio-born writer, entrepreneur, and activist. Her work and her upcoming book with Penguin Random House centers the reimagining of womanhood, solidarity, and self. She is the founder of the Loveland Foundation, a nonprofit offering free therapy to Black women and girls, as well as Elizabeth's Bookshop and Writing Centre, a literary space in Akron designed to amplify celebrate and honor the work of writers who are often excluded from traditional cultural, social and academic canons. Rachel is a regular contributor to Cultured magazine, Atmos magazine, and The Cut and has been featured in the Washington Post, the New York times, Forbes, Harper's Bazaar, and the New Yorker. Rachel, thank you so much for being here today. Rachel Cargle (01:12): Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to chat with you. Laura Maylene Walter (01:15): Well, I always start my interviews by asking my guests about their connection to Ohio. Now you grew up in Akron, so I was hoping you could paint the picture for us. Tell us a bit about what it was like for you growing up in Akron and how that has influenced the career you have today. Rachel Cargle (01:30): I really love the opportunity to talk about Ohio. It has such a special place in my mind, in my heart, in my body, as someone who has moved away and who comes back often, I am reminded of why my roots are there and how they show up in my day to day life. As I move through the world, I begin to see how much Ohio weather in specific has been a part of my life. I get a little claustrophobic when it's too warm for too long or too cold for too long. I really love the sea seasons and having grown up in the Midwest, having grown up in Ohio, that's such a, the seasonal rhythm of life is something I really appreciate having gotten from growing up in Ohio. I grew up actually in a suburb called Green, Ohio, which is right outside of Akron. I spent a lot of time in Akron. It's where a lot of my life happened. My church life, where I grew up, my family, my grandmother, my aunts, my cousins, and a lot of the social activities that my family did, the Akron Art Museum all centered within the city of Akron. And so I really claim it as part of the life that I live there and the life that I continue to build there in the Midwest, in Ohio, in Northeast, Ohio, and then specifically in Akron. Laura Maylene Walter (02:45): Well, speaking of your years growing up in the Akron area, I have to ask a library question. I had read that you spent some time at the Akron-Summit County Public Library when you were growing up, I believe. Can you tell us a bit about that? What did the library mean to you when you were younger? Do you have any stories or anything you'd like to share about your time as a library goer in Akron? Rachel Cargle (03:07): I spent so much time at the Akron-Summit County Public Library. Some of my greatest memories as a child are at the library, my mother and I made somewhat of a ritual of going to downtown to go to what I thought in my head is the big library. It was the library where on main street, they had these wooden elephants that I remember so clearly that we used to be so excited to see and climb on, which I don't think we were allowed to, but we definitely would. And it was a all-encompassing experience from me from being able to be out of the suburbs, into the city with a little more people, see friends that I didn't get to see during the school week. It was seeing a much larger selection than the small library near my home would offer. And also there were the cultural aspects, the programming that they did was so dynamic and it added so much to me as a reader, as a writer, as someone who was, you know, building my understanding of the world and culture, even when I got to the age where I could choose, you know, where I was and how I spent my time, I still very much so included the library as a place that I loved to be, um, wanted to be at. Rachel Cargle (04:18): And it was a big part of my day to day life moving through high school. And as I've traveled around the world, I've quoted this often that I have yet to find a library that gives me the same feeling that the Akron Public Library does. Maybe the only one I'll throw out is the Phoenix Public Library is really wonderful and gives me a bit of the same experience. But that speaks to my love for libraries has transferred from the joy I found in Akron library to every city that I've spent time in. And often even the cities that I travel to, I take time to visit the local public library. Laura Maylene Walter (04:53): Yeah. I really think anyone who has an attachment to the library as a child or who found something they needed in the library in their younger years, I feel like that always carries on throughout the rest of their lives and hopefully creates a lifelong library supporter of them. So that's great. And we will talk a bit more, I wanna ask you a little later about your own writing and, and how you developed as a writer, but first I'd like to help paint the picture of how your career developed as it did, and if I'm not mistaken. Well, one of the catalysts was the 2017 Women's March in DC. You had a photograph that went viral. I'm wondering if you could tell us about that moment and the journey it set you on and where it ended up taking you. Rachel Cargle (05:33): Yeah, the 2017 Women's March, the photo that was taken there and it going viral was certainly a catalyst for the way that my career is positioned in the world right now. So it was a photo of me and my friend, Dana Suchow. She's a white woman. We were standing next to each other, both with our fists up. And we both had signs reading. If you don't support all women, you support no women. And then another sign that listed a lot of the marginalized spaces that feminism often doesn't reach. And that photo got a lot of praise and celebration on social media in mainly white spaces, things like Refinery 29, things like Huffington Post Women. And then a few months later, the post kind of made the rounds again during International Women's Month. I believe it usually gets attention around holidays and days that celebrate women. Rachel Cargle (06:27): And when it kind of went viral for the second time, there was a new audience that was seeing it, AFROPUNK had posted it. And for those who aren't familiar, AFROPUNK has a main audience space of people of color. And there was a very different response from people of color to that photo. They were questioning my participation in the feminist movement, and they were asking me essentially to be a little bit more critical about how my race and my gender were intersecting. I really began to do a lot of self-study. And I started to dive into opportunities to educate myself about the history of the feminist movement, about the way Black women played into the conversation of feminism and how the actual movement looked. What was the texture of it? As it applied to race, what I found was that it was very murky waters for Black women who were trying to fight for their rights as women, but also moving through the harms and frustrations in the ways that whiteness showed up with racism within this fight for women's rights. Rachel Cargle (07:32): I began to kind of learn out loud on my social media page at the time. And I think then I probably had around seven to 10,000 followers and I was just posting what I was learning. I was posting about the racist actions of a lot of the suffragettes I was posting about the way Ida B. Wells was told that she could be part of the suffragette parade, but she had to be in the back. I was reading about the ways that at the modern manifestations of this racism within the feminist movement and how it connected with more historical events and everything just was really becoming clear to me. And I was able to put pieces together that pushed me to be critical, but I wanted to do that in community because I did have a lot of community with white women in the feminist movement who were letting me know that they hadn't learned about these things that they hadn't really seen or been exposed to a lot of the truths about the feminist movement as it applied to race. Rachel Cargle (08:32): And so I wanted to be in conversation and community with those who were following me, posting what I was learning, asking questions, giving my opinions. And as I began to do that on social media, I started to be invited to write about my opinions. And my first published piece was with Huffington post. And I wrote about the one year anniversary of that photo going viral. And that kind of pushed me into a space where I was being invited to be part of more conversations around feminism. I was being invited to share the knowledge that I had been kind of curating over this year. And I got these really incredible invitations to write for bigger publications. I moved into writing a column for Harper's Bazaar. I was able to write in some academic journals as well. And so it really blossomed out of this experience of learning out loud, online, and then being invited to write out what I was learning, how I was feeling and how these issues were showing up in everyday modern feminist spaces. Laura Maylene Walter (09:33): Yeah, that's great. And you've really, since then, in addition to writing and lecturing and teaching and becoming a really visible presence. In addition to all of these things, you've also done so much work to give back. You founded a nonprofit that offers free therapy to Black women and girls. And here in Northeast Ohio, you founded Elizabeth's Bookshop and Writing Centre. I would love to hear about that. We always need more independent bookstores everywhere, and especially this one is so special. So can you tell us about the process of how, and when you decided you wanted to open this book shop and how it all came together? Rachel Cargle (10:11): Yeah. So I've been living in Brooklyn for about five years and my mother got a terminal cancer diagnosis in 2019. And so I decided I wanted to be able to move home to be closer to her, to support her and just kind of ground myself in home, which is helpful in so many ways I got there. And I was kind of in the upswing of this career shift that I was talking about these invitations to write, to speak. And what I realized when I got back to Akron, you know, in Brooklyn, you kind of jump up and head to a bookstore that is owned by a person of color. That's filled with people of color in one way or another, whether it's on the shelves being celebrated, whether it's sitting in the seats, writing, thinking, chatting with each other. And I was in Akron and I jump up to do a normal, Hey, I wanna go to a bookstore and I go to look and there wasn't really anything independent available to me in Akron. Rachel Cargle (11:08): And I was like, oh no, I'm gonna have to open one. I was like, there's no way that I can be living here and not have the kind of space that I know sparks my creativity that I know brings together a community that I know is a safe and exciting place to meet with friends, to meet with lovers, to have meetings that can be inspired and intentional and just be surrounded by the type of creative, interesting, intentional people that bookstores have always created an environment for. And so it wasn't until 2020 that I was able to kind of get my team together and say, here's what I want to do. And then the pandemic hit and we really took the downtime of me not being out, speaking and teaching to have the opportunity to really think through what type of bookstore we would like. And in September of 2020, we were able to open with all the safety precautions that were available to us at the time. And we've had over a year of success in Akron, being able to offer a really dynamic a collection of books and resources to people who love bookstores in the same way that I do Laura Maylene Walter (12:19): Part of the bookstore. It's also a writing center. So I'd really love to hear about that. What kind of classes do you offer, who are your typical students, who, who attend these classes and give us a sense of how you're able to give back to the literary community of your hometown in this way? Rachel Cargle (12:37): Yeah. So as you mentioned, I have a pretty big social media following, and I wanted to figure out a way to be in community with anyone no matter where they were in addition to the wonderful community that we have on the ground inside of the physical shop. And so with the writing center, I wanted to be able to give people the opportunity to recognize the writer that is within them. And to remember that being a writer doesn't always mean being published. It doesn't always mean being recognized, but it's really in the developing of our craft and in the intention and the heart that we put into being writers. And that's really what I want to cultivate alongside the more rigorous writing workshops that could compete with some of the bigger organizations that are producing and celebrating and supporting emerging writers. And I wanted to be a part of that community as well. Rachel Cargle (13:28): And my team was really able to come together to build something special, where we have a mix of very hands on very small group, very intentional workshops, things like the art of characterization and fictional works, things like poetry, workshops, horror workshops, looking at how to take control of our own narrative. These are workshops that allow us to find ourselves and writing, and that's what I want for the community. And we've also started to begin having feedback sessions where we're able to be a little more intensive with those who are working on building their craft towards a career in writing towards the opportunity to be published. And so I really wanted to fixate Elizabeth's as a space that welcomes writers of all levels and of all intentions and gives us an opportunity and a space to realize the fullness of who we can be as writers. And that's really exciting to me Laura Maylene Walter (14:26): Now, I know you also have a special focus on supporting writers from marginalized communities, some of your work centers Black writers, BIPOC writers, who might not have the same access to certain spaces that other writers do. Can you talk a bit about that and how do you see Elizabeth's filling that need? Rachel Cargle (14:45): Yeah, I mean, part of the description of our bookstore is, you know, honoring and celebrating marginalized voices and what I know as a Black, queer woman from the Midwest who has moved to a major city and who has been able to build a career in the publishing industry as a writer, within social conversations around feminism, it is so clear. The ways that marginalized voices are undervalued are kind of put through a ringer before they're able to have access or a seat at the table in industries, conversations. It is very disheartening to see the friction that marginalized groups come up against. This includes people of color people with disability, the queer community, the immigrant community. There are ways that unless you are white, particularly white and male, you have a lot of frustrations trying to do what you're looking for, what you're going for. And so I'm hoping that Elizabeth's stands as a bit of a launching pad for people building confidence in their craft from the writing center. Rachel Cargle (15:51): But as far as the bookstore, being able to walk into a space and to see books, see YA books, see cookbooks, see art books, see poetry books that center the voices that we don't usually hear. It will give a inspiration, it'll give a texture. It will give a perspective to the world or to whatever subject you're looking to read about that we don't get from the whitewashed educations we often get in schools, even in elementary school, middle school, high school, all the way through institutions that we're attending. So I am really proud of the perspective that Elizabeth is offering the world for people. And when I say people, I mean, all of us who are kind of swimming in this world of whiteness, being centered, whiteness, being understood as normal as the norm whiteness being understood as the center and everything else is outside of it. I really want to begin to give people a more realistic, a more collage, vibrant lens through which they can view whatever it is they're looking to read or understand and how they understand the world. Laura Maylene Walter (16:56): Listening to you describe Elizabeth's and the kind of space it is...I would like to imagine that someone out there will listen to this and be inspired to open a similar space in their own community, whether in Ohio or elsewhere. So I'm wondering what advice would you have for someone who might want to do something similar one day? What have you learned about opening a small, independent bookstore, especially during the pandemic, which is such a tough time, but what have you learned and what can you offer maybe in terms of advice? Rachel Cargle (17:24): My biggest advice is in relationships and building community. I think that what I am most excited about at Elizabeth's are the various ways that literature is fitting into the everyday community building that is happening in Akron, from collaborations with the art museum, with local school systems, with local musicians, we have been able to find a way to be in relationship with other parts of Akron that also serve our community in ways to inspire creativity, inspire connection, inspire being critical is really a beautiful thing to see unfold. And it's really the most exciting part because you know, the selling of the books keeps the business sustainable, but it's in the relationships and it's in the community that is built around that bookstore that really gives the meat and value to what I'm doing and what any bookseller would be doing. And so I think that putting in intention, in building relationships in going to a local school and saying, how can we support you going to another institution? Rachel Cargle (18:28): Like, like the art museum or another, like I said, music spaces and saying, how can we collaborate to bring even more elevation to the way we each are trying to serve the community? I think it is a powerful move away from the intrinsically capitalist values of a company or a business and kind of turning it on a its head and saying, it's the community that thrives that makes me feel successful as opposed to how many books we sell and they will inevitably pour into each other. And so building that community is beautiful and beneficial in more ways than one. Laura Maylene Walter (19:03): I would love to hear about your own writing and the development or the evolution of your writing career. You mentioned your first published piece was in HuffPo. Can you talk a bit about, were you writing before that, and how has your writing changed and grown over the years? Rachel Cargle (19:20): Yeah, I feel really lucky in this career path because writing has always come very easeful to me throughout school. I was always celebrated as someone who seemed to be able to put words together, paragraphs together in a way that was pleasing to my, you know, my parents and my teachers and I independently developed a love for it because I really saw it as an art. I cannot draw, I cannot paint, but I am able to create visual visceral feelings through the words that I put together. And as I grew up into adulthood and I took on writing as something more personal, as opposed to something I just had to do for school or just had to do for work, it really became an art form for me. And I really appreciate the opportunity to be out in the world, creating art in this way. Rachel Cargle (20:07): I wasn't a writer before I moved into this space writing and ability to do it played into the positions that I had such as. I was like a communications manager at a homeowner's association for a while in my twenties. And so writing played into my ability to do my work, but I never really took myself as a writer, as a title. I would give myself, and I didn't really understand how it looked as a career, um, or how it would fit to a career. And so when I got these opportunities to write from these publications, I really leaned into it. I really took it seriously. And I put a lot of my heart on the paper in terms of trying to both get out the information I was trying to get out, because it was a space where I was teaching on this subject of race and feminism, but I also was very invested in the craft of it. And so while I don't have a traditional degree at all, and I certainly don't have an MFA, like many of my writer friends have, I do put a lot of intention into finding opportunities to build my craft, being in close relationship with editors on various pieces to continue to show up as the best writer I can be to match that with the quality of content, the quality of scholarship and the quality of really just intention that I'm putting out into the world, through my writing. Laura Maylene Walter (21:21): Is there anything you'd like to share about the craft of these pieces you're working on any particular advice you've received from one of your editors? Anything you've discovered yourself along the way? I'm curious, because I think writing about race and feminism and writing for the publications that you are presents its own set of skills that are required. So I think some writers out there might be interested in writing along similar lines and might be curious what craft tips you can offer. Rachel Cargle (21:46): The thing I definitely have learned is that to be a good writer, you have to be a good reader. And so I have really built up what I call my literary ancestors, which are all of the people who came before me whose work really speaks to the type of writing. I wanna do the type of connection I wanna have with my readers, the type of heart that I wanna put into my words. And that's been a really powerful for me to build the framework for my own lane. As a writer is look and read past writers who speak to and even present writers. I say my literary ancestors, cause I'm talking about Toni Morrison, Maya Angelou, Joan Didion, a lot of people and women, particularly Black women, but also others who have really captured the emotion, the intention, and kind of the shape of writing that I want my work to have in the world. Rachel Cargle (22:35): But also there are present people who I study their work it's really studying, going through highlighting. I have one highlighter color for this was a dope transition. How can I work that into my work? I have another highlighter that speaks to vocabulary words that I don't know that I highlighted and make sure I wanna learn. I have things that speak to shape like, oh, okay, I see how they took this information, circled back to it by the end to pull the piece together. So a lot of self-study for me has looked like pouring over the works of people whose writing moves me, and figuring out how I can learn from their technique and shape it into something that looks like my voice. Laura Maylene Walter (23:12): Well, this next question is admittedly a big one. And, but I ask it in light of you founded Elizabeth's and you have a bookstore space that especially celebrates Black authors and authors from marginalized communities. But I'm wondering if you have anything you'd like to share about either the current state of the publishing industry, especially for Black authors today. You know, I think publishing has been in flux, maybe in turmoil, since 2020. And so I'm curious, especially as a bookshop owner, what do you have to say about the state of the publishing industry now? Or what would you like to see in the future? What are your hopes for how the industry can either transform or become more equitable? Rachel Cargle (23:52): Turmoil is such apt language. The publishing industry is incredibly antiquated in many ways, not just its view on what's a valid writer, what is valid writing, but also in its structure and in its processes, I was very disappointed in the way that the publishing industry showed up in the midst of 2020. And I had many conversations with my own publisher about my disappointment and about my expectations. And I hope that other writers did as well. But what my hopes for around the industry there are, I'm seeing a lot of publishing houses, not a lot, but I'm seeing many publishing houses pop up that are created by and centering the voices of people of color. But I think that we have this opportunity of these bigger houses that have the resources and have the connections to give marginalized writers space, to be seen, be heard, be celebrated, be supported. Rachel Cargle (24:53): And you know, it's so disappointing. I have many writer friends, I'm thinking of one friend who just finished her second book with the same publisher. She's raising funds for her book tour. And it's just disheartening to see her trying to get her book, the publicity that she knows it deserves when her actual publisher hasn't stepped up to the plate. And so I think that there is vast opportunity for publishers to hold themselves accountable and see how they can really shape the industry. They say like, oh, you know, we can't necessarily push this book as hard as we want to because it's not going to be a bestseller. When if you look behind the curtain of the publishing industry, the publishers themselves hold a lot of weight in what gets onto a New York Times Bestseller list, what gets TV opportunities. Thinking about like the Today Show or Oprah Show, their book clubs. And there's a lot of accountability. There's a lot of exposing of how the industry works. And there's a lot of ways that the general public needs to support these marginalized artists. Because I can tell you firsthand that the publishers are very rarely the people who are going to be able to find it within themselves to be intentional to make these changes. Laura Maylene Walter (26:09): Yeah, it's a very good point. Well, I'd also, I feel I should ask you about social media because I know, especially for writers out there, their presence on social media is sometimes a source of either concern or anxiety, but you do it so well, your Instagram account is really fantastic. And of course you have so many followers. I'm wondering if you could just give us a sense of first of all, what is it like to have so many followers? The introverted side of me feels a little terrified at the mere prospect of having so many eyeballs potentially on whatever I'm posting. So what is that like for you and how have you found the most successful ways to use social media as a tool for your larger work? Rachel Cargle (26:48): Yeah, well, I'm certainly not an introvert, so I don't think I match those same feelings necessarily. My Instagram account in particular has offered me such a beautiful space for building community, being in conversation and holding myself accountable, to being more critical. What I love about the opportunity to engage with people one on one without like an agent in between me or an institution in between me and them is that it opens up space for more realistic conversation. And that's really supported me as a writer. It supported me as a thinker in ways that only being in conversation with individuals can offer. And so I think for writers who are building their social media to really focus it on building those communities and conversations that will allow you to build more craft and build more material in your head about what you wanna put on the paper. Rachel Cargle (27:45): I think that's the true value in terms of having such a large platform myself. I don't know if it's a general term, but I call it platform privilege. Having so many followers has allowed me to be a part of conversations that I might not be a part of if I didn't have the presence that I have. And so while I do value the opportunity to show up in spaces, it really is the opportunity that I have to highlight others that might not have gotten to this point yet. So it's been really special to be able to have collaborations with magazines or companies, and they say, Rachel, can you curate five emerging writers? Can you curate who else you'd like to be in conversation with around a particular topic? I have this really awesome opportunity to bring in people who have not yet had the exposure that I had and give them kind of a platform to have their own mic, to share their own work, to present their own craft. And that has been a really special part of my career as well. Laura Maylene Walter (28:49): Well, speaking of curating, I was hoping you could help us curate our bookshelves by recommending a few books, especially those that Elizabeth's sells. So I am open to hearing about any books you'd like to recommend. I know that you have spoken and written before about encouraging readers to seek out a wide range of books by writers of color. Not necessarily only those that are focused on race or are centered on trauma, but I believe the words you used were rooted in joy. So I'm wondering if you could just share a few book recommendations for our audience. Rachel Cargle (29:23): Yeah, for sure. I have been finding a lot of joy in reading novels as someone who talks more academically often or more in scholarship or around social issues, novels, aren't things that I usually have time to sit and read through. So it's been really enjoyable and also YA novels as an adult. It's nice to like sink into my teenage self and just exist there for a little bit. So I definitely want to suggest books like Chlorine Sky by Mahogany Brown, things like Grown by Tiffany Jackson. A lot of the YA books speak to the Black teenage experience and also just kind of gives a voice to a part of blackness that isn't always seen because we're so inundated with a lot of the trauma points that are happening within the United States. I also have just been enjoying Black romance novels. Like I just wanna read about Black people being in love. Rachel Cargle (30:22): Also a lot of children's books that are so good, the ones I speak to the Black experience, but also things that speak to other marginalized groups. So like Listening with My Heart that is written by someone who is actually part of Latin community, as opposed to what other people are writing I'm from Akron. LeBron's I Promise book goes off the shelves very quickly. The book You Matter by Christian Robinson, there are ways that we're able to look at the world that we understand like life experience, childhood relationships, to parents, relationships, to schools that we often are only seeing it through the eyes of whiteness, the lens of whiteness, the experience of whiteness that isn't always applicable, or isn't even giving us the texture that we need, the nuance that we need about the life experience. So yeah, those are some of my favorites. Laura Maylene Walter (31:13): Great. Well, thank you so much. I'll be sure to link to those books in the show notes to help people find them. And speaking of which, I think we should start to wrap up. I want to respect your time, but would you like to direct our listeners to any particular websites or anywhere you would like to send listeners who are really intrigued by what you have to say and want to learn more? Rachel Cargle (31:37): Yeah, we're on Instagram. The bookstore is Elizabeth's of Akron at Elizabeth's of Akron on Instagram, Elizabethsofakron.com online. And my personal page on Instagram is Rachel.Cargle. And you can follow me and my work there. Laura Maylene Walter (31:52): Great. Well, Rachel, thank you so much for taking the time today and spreading the word about these books and your bookstore and your work. Thank you so much. Rachel Cargle (32:01): This was so much fun. Thank you. I appreciate it. Laura Maylene Walter (32:05): Thank you so much to our guest. Rachel Elizabeth Cargle. Follow her on Instagram @rachel.cargle and buy a book today from Elizabeth's Bookshop and Writing Centre. Page Count is presented by the Ohio Center of the Book at Cleveland Public Library. Learn more online at ohiocenterforthebook.org. Follow us on Twitter @cplocfb, or find us on Facebook. If you'd like to get in touch, email firstname.lastname@example.org and put "podcast" in the subject line. Finally, follow me on Twitter and Instagram @LauraMaylene. Thanks for listening, and we'll be back in two weeks for another chapter of Page Count.