Carving a Story with Chiquita Mullins Lee & Carmella Van Vleet

Chiquita Mullins Lee (00:00):
I've heard that he had this charm about him. He was really this charming, wonderful person. I never got a chance to meet him. I came to Columbus after he'd already passed away, but I just feel such a strong connection with him and just really feel privileged to be able to tell his story.

Laura Maylene Walter (00:15):
Welcome to Page Count, presented by the Ohio Center for the Book at Cleveland Public Library. This podcast celebrates authors, illustrators, librarians, booksellers, literary advocates and readers in and from the state of Ohio. I'm your host, Laura Maylene Walter, the Ohio Center for the Book Fellow and author of the novel BODY OF STARS. Today we're joined by Chiquita Mullins Lee and Carmella Van Vleet. The two authors of the picture book, YOU GOTTA MEET MR. PIERCE. We'll talk about the life art and significance of Elijah Pierce, a celebrated self-taught black folk artist known for his wood carvings, as well as the writing process for this picture book. Chiquita and Carmella, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for being here.

Chiquita Mullins Lee (01:02):
Thank you, Laura.

Carmella Van Vleet (01:03):
Yes, thank you.

Laura Maylene Walter (01:04):
Well, we're excited to have you because YOU GOTTA MEET MR. PIERCE is our youth selection for Ohio's Great Reads From Great Places. So your book will represent Ohio at the National Book Festival in DC this summer. We're so excited about that, and I think it's special because the book is about an Ohio artist and both of you are Ohio authors. We're just gonna start with a really broad question. For any of our listeners who don't know who Elijah Pierce was, can you both fill us in? Who was Elijah Pierce and why were you driven to write this picture book about him?

Carmella Van Vleet (01:40):
I'm going to let Chiquita start because that's where this all started.

Laura Maylene Walter (01:43):
Yeah, yeah. Tell us how it all started.

Chiquita Mullins Lee (01:45):
Well, Elijah Pierce, as you mentioned, he was considered the elder statemen of folk art. He became so accomplished in his work that people just really appreciated him and celebrated the fact that he was just this great wood carver and artist. He had come from Mississippi. He was born in 1892 in Mississippi. Had a very exciting life, even as a young child in Mississippi because he was attracted to carving, wood carving. He grew up on a farm. He did not like the farm. He liked to kind of get out on his own and run around in the woods with his dog and carve wood. Between his father and his uncle he learned to carve and just continued to do it through most of his life. But he ended up not liking Mississippi for a lot of reasons. Had some run-ins that had to do with race and all of that, and ended up riding the rails and leaving Mississippi. Ended up in Columbus, Ohio because he followed a woman there that he had met in Illinois, followed a woman who wanted to get married.

Chiquita Mullins Lee (02:41):
He did. Then after she left to come back to Columbus, he followed her. They got married the same day he came to Columbus. They were both very much religious people of faith. A lot of his carvings had to do with faith. As he continued to do the the wood carvings that he became famous for, his wife encouraged him to sort of carve these religious stories. He carved Bible stories, religious stories, and we used these Bible stories to preach when he would go to these different churches and he would preach. They settled in Columbus. He opened a barbershop because he was a barber. He started barbering when he was, oh, about 16 years old in Mississippi. So he had this sort of dual career barbering and carving, and the two kind of grew together and with his wife's encouragement with his interest in continuing to carve and tell these stories, that's kind of how his whole sort of life came together.

Chiquita Mullins Lee (03:31):
So I learned about him because there was an exhibit about him at the Columbus Museum of Art years and years ago, probably the late 1980s when I was really kind of getting to know Columbus. I was also involved with CATCO, the Contemporary American Theater Company in Columbus at that time. And Jeff Nelson was the artistic director of CATCO. And I had written some short plays for the CATCO, a short festival, and I had also been on the board. And he asked me one day after a board meeting, how about Elijah Pierce? And I said, what about him? And he said a one man play. So I started writing a play, did a lot of research, talked to people who knew him. Play was eventually, and it took a long time, but the play was eventually staged and premiered for CATCO.

Chiquita Mullins Lee (04:16):
Got a lot of great reviews, was considered one of the top ten stage performances of that year, which was 2010. And then a few years after that, after Jeff left CATCO, he started his own touring company. So when he started his touring company, which was called a portable theater, it would go around, he would take different productions around the state of Ohio. Also the places in and around Columbus. One of the places that he took the play to was Village Academy and on this particular night I had gone to the performance because I didn't go to every performance, but I went to the performance that particular night. And we had a talk back afterwards with the actor. It was a one man show, the actor Alan Bomar Jones, who portrays Elijah Pierce. Amazing actor. So we had a talk back afterwards, after the talk back, very, very nice young woman come up to me and asked me...cause I thought about writing a children's book about Elijah Pierce. And of course the answer is yes. And so I let Carmela take it from there. <laugh>.

Carmella Van Vleet (05:15):
That's it. Just walked up and just handed her my card, introduced myself. And I had been writing children's books for quite some time. That's been my full-time job now for over 20 years. And I was just mesmerized by the play. Like the actor and the story itself and just so intrigued by all the things that had happened to Mr. Pierce. And having lived in Columbus for 35 years, I had never heard his name. And I just thought, how do I not know who this person is? Like this is a pretty significant artist from our community. And I knew that if I wasn't familiar with who he was, that other people probably weren't familiar with who he was either. So that's why I approached her and just said, hey, would you like to give this a shot? And very gratefully <laugh>, she did want to give it a shot. So that's what we did. We started working together and just kind of brainstorming how this was going to work with kids. You know, she had done the play and she had a lot of that research and, and I had sort of the experience of, okay, how do you write for kids and how do we tell this story for kids? Because as an artist, his work was quite visual and, and so the picture book, I think format fit that very well. You know, an opportunity to show his art and expose kids to that.

Laura Maylene Walter (06:37):
Yeah, that's really interesting. And I would be curious about the play, which I have not seen and I wish I had, but in the book, it's like entering this fabulous world of his barbershop where his artwork lived and hung and it's told through the point of view of a little boy who enters the shop and is kind of experiencing this wonderland of the wood carvings. Was the play more focused on the setting of the barbershop with the carvings, or did it cover more of his entire life, such as in Mississippi? I'd be curious how that translated like from the play to the book. I know it's not an adaptation, but you know.

Chiquita Mullins Lee (07:11):
Well, the play does cover a large portion of his life because he basically tells his story to an audience. With the book it's a completely different thing of course. Another thing about the play is that it actually is going to be staged later on this year. So.

Laura Maylene Walter (07:26):
Oh great, wonderful.

Chiquita Mullins Lee (07:27):
If you happen to be in Columbus in November. The McConnell Center was actually going to stage it again, so you get a chance to see it. It is a one man show, and he does tell his entire life story from how he came into carving and riding the rails and ending up in one place to another place, to another place. The women in his life, how carving carved his own life. You know, how he ended up doing this particular work and how it eventually expanded and exploded. And he ends up with this following. He is also a real strong community leader because people came to see him, would come into his barbershop and talk to me. He'd tell his stories. And so he became like this elder, he became this sort of greeter in a way, and people were very interested in his story. So he tell his stories, he'd carve, he'd give away his carvings all the time. He's also been here. So it's all those different things kind of layered together as he carved out a life for himself.

Laura Maylene Walter (08:16):
Oh yeah, that's really beautiful. Yeah, and I loved reading about how he would give away so many carvings to people who seemed taken by a certain carving. He would just give it away and if he thought the person needed its message. And one thing I found really interesting about the book, it's a picture book for children. So it is centered more tightly on one moment in time where a child is going in and meeting Mr. Pierce and seeing his artwork and experiencing it for the first time. And I found it really interesting. Your author's note at the end points out that the quotes that Mr. Pierce, what he is saying, the dialogue in the book are actual quotes that he has said. But the story itself is of course, fictional. The boy is fictional. You may be played with the timeline a little of, you know, the book is set in the seventies. Can you both talk about that a little bit, about the decision to kind of mix the fact of his dialogue with a fictional setting with this little boy entering his barbershop?

Carmella Van Vleet (09:06):
For me, what intrigued me so much about the story and the play and how Chiquita told it was his voice. Listen to videos of Elijah's telling a story. There's a couple of videos out there where he's being interviewed, and I think I'm speaking for both of us, we, you know, very much wanted to keep that aspect, keep his voice be true to his own storytelling as much as we could. And so we scoured research looking for quotes that fit in with the situation. And it was very important to us because I think it helps give readers a sense of who he was and yeah, just the way he spoke. And some of the quotes were not appropriate for kids, so we had to kind of work around this.

Laura Maylene Walter (09:58):
I wrote down a few that I really liked, if I could just share them so our listeners get a sense. He said, "Everything I carve, I want it to tell some kind of story". I really love that connection he seems to make between art and storytelling, which, which is really wonderful. And he's also, he also says to the, the little boy, "The more you look, the more you see." And they're talking about like all the artwork in his barbershop. But of course you can imagine that quote relating on a broader metaphorical level of being an artist and really observing the world and paying attention to details. So I thought that was really, really wonderful. The storytelling, his art as a way to tell stories, I think was a very powerful part of this book. And I think also just learning about him being, you know, he was a self-taught artist, and how at the time maybe that wasn't as recognized. I wonder if you could talk a bit about how later in his life he did gain some more recognition. There was a big exhibit, his work was a part of that was fairly groundbreaking. So can you talk about the, the evolution of how his work was appreciated over time and today?

Chiquita Mullins Lee (11:05):
Well, you know, he spent so much time in church after he decided that he was going to stop running from his calling because that was part of his story too, he knew early on that he was going with the veil and the idea that he had the special calling on his life because he was going with the veil. That was sort of a, a tradition from...Sort of African based tradition and the fact that he did this work, that he was sort of drawn into what he called a habit, that became a hobby, that became a calling. And then just doing so much, so much work in so many different types of carvings from animals to famous figures to Bible stories, you know, all those things just kind of coming out of him, it seems like he was just really prolific, even from an early age, I guess.

Chiquita Mullins Lee (11:48):
And one of the things that was a turning point for him was he was at the Y...there was a, I guess it wasn't really a folk art exhibition, but a senior art exhibition for older adults at the Y And he had his table set up and an artist who was fairly well known in Columbus and at Ohio State at the time, saw his work and was really excited about it. He was going around saying, people, you know, you gotta see Elijah Pierce, you got meet him, you gotta see his carving, kind of where the title comes from. And so he took these carvings and sent them to Yugoslavia to an arts festival, afolk arts festival in Yugoslavia. And Mr. Pierce won first place. And so things just kind of started to take off after that. And people wanted to know more about him. He started having articles published about him in Life Magazine.

Chiquita Mullins Lee (12:35):
You know, the videos and audio interviews that Carmella referred to earlier. Those things just started happening. And so word of mouth, articles, more traveling, you know, he and his wife course they had been doing that early on as they traveled around during the summertime. So it just kind of took off from there. And pretty soon people were coming to the barbershop not to get their hair cut, but to meet him and to see his work. And he was always very generous with his time. He was generous with his carvings because he would give things away, but he was generous with his time too and telling his story and it just continued to blossom from there. And so after, after a while, the work is in museums all over the country from New York to Washington DC to California. Of course he has this huge sort of collection with the Columbus Museum of Art and Carmella and I had a chance to experience that a couple of years ago. And to just go down into the basement of the Columbus Museum of Art and they pull out this wall and it's just an entire wall covered with his carvings and that's still only a fraction of the work that he's done. So he really made a tremendous impact while he was here and still is making a tremendous impact.

Laura Maylene Walter (13:42):
That sounds like an amazing experience. So Carmella, were there particular pieces of his that you saw that day at the museum that are memorable?

Carmella Van Vleet (13:51):
I just remember, yeah, when they take you down in the locked room and they pulled the gate open and I just remember being, you know, without words, these are, these were things that I had seen in books or had seen online but had never seen in person. Like, there's a hope sign. It's just a little plaque that he carved that just says "hope" on it with angel wings. And, and I get a postcard from the museum, the gift shop, you know, being able to see that in person. And you know, we weren't allowed to touch of course, but we were allowed to kind of get up really close and <laugh> really look at, you know, the details and the glitter and the color and yeah, I just remember just, can I just sit here and <laugh>?

Laura Maylene Walter (14:34):
The book is illustrated by Jennifer Mack-Watkins. So you both wrote it and she did the artwork. It's a gorgeous book. Can you talk about her artwork? I know we don't have her here with us today, but a bit about your collaboration with her as writers and how the art of the book came together.

Chiquita Mullins Lee (14:52):
Carmella, you're smiling so much. Go ahead <laugh>.

Carmella Van Vleet (14:55):
Well, I, I was just kind of laughing at the collaboration part of that question because a lot of people don't realize that writers and illustrators don't collaborate. We are actually kind of kept separate and there's a reason for that in publishing. You know, this was Jennifer's first book. I know they approached her because she does wood carving, I mean Japanese wood carving, wood printing, that's how the pictures were done. And so I know for her and talking with her that it was a lot of process of researching and figuring out what kind of things, you know, would've been in place that era and, and that kind of thing. We were able to see some early sketches and you know, had some feedback like, well what about this? Or, and it was all things like, okay, he's a little too old in this picture, or that kind of thing, so, but there's very little sort of collaboration.

Carmella Van Vleet (15:50):
We didn't have a lot of say in that. And that's okay because publishers do that in order to keep that process very pure for both sides. As writers, we feel very possessive of this story and illustrators feel very possessive of the story as well. You know, everybody's got their own vision and we have to leave space for Jennifer to do that. I'm grateful for the publisher, you know, for choosing her. I think she did a wonderful job and it's just been great getting to know her. She was shocked when she came to Columbus and we all met at the museum and I had made some comment about this was, you know, I've been doing this for over 20 years and I said, you're the first illustrator of any of my work that I've met. And she was like, what <laugh>? And I was like, yeah, I just, you know, I've never met the people who've done the covers or illustrations for my other books or anything. That's just not something that I have any control over.

Laura Maylene Walter (16:48):
It is interesting the way the industry works in order to kind of preserve the artistic freedom of both writer and illustrator and listeners. I can link to a few path page count episodes where I speak with some illustrators or writers of picture books who talk about that as well. But yeah, it is interesting because collaboration, you didn't collaborate with her, like you didn't all sit down together and work together or anything like that. But in the end, the end result, it's a form of collaboration that it's, you know, three artistic minds kind of coming together for one book. But maybe we could talk about your writing collaboration. So Carmela, you have done a lot of children's books. Can you talk about your experience of having a co-writer? Is that something you've done a lot? And how did the two of you work together as you wrote this book?

Carmella Van Vleet (17:32):
This was my first successful collaboration with somebody. And you know, it's always a little tricky when you're working with somebody, but like I told Chiquita early on, you know, you got to keep your ego out of it. And if everybody's on board with that sort of the same vision, I am not sure how we just lucked out so well. But Chiquita and I were very much like one mind. I mean, there was one of us would throw out something and it would be like, yeah, I was thinking of the same thing. Or no, that's a great idea. I mean, I don't remember there being any sort of huge challenges of that's not going to work, or what about this? And we also had our feedback from our agent as well. So there was sort of that. But I think, you know, one of us would write something and then we'd send it off to the other person and then that person would offer feedback and we just kind of went back and forth with different drafts that way.

Carmella Van Vleet (18:34):
So a lot of it is just, yeah, I don't know where what I wrote and which Chiquita wrote. It just eventually all just sort of mushed together and it worked well because I think that you have to have the same vision and that same commitment to telling the story and what is the best way to tell the story. And that means lots of times, yeah, just not thinking as a me, but thinking as a we, how are we going tell the story and what do each of us bring to that? Because Chiquita is a poet, she has all this lyrical language and that was great, you know, that really worked out well. I mean, it was a great experience. In fact, we're collaborating on another book together, but I know yet sometimes that collaboration can be tricky. And I think for me, that's the key is to find somebody that you just sort of share that commitment to and get out of your own way. <laugh>. Yeah.

Laura Maylene Walter (19:30):
What about you Chiquita? What was the experience like?

Chiquita Mullins Lee (19:33):
You know, I really, I, I can't add anything to what Carmella said. I mean, that's exactly what it was like, you know, as both bringing our, I think our respective perspectives, an openness and a willingness to make this work. Because we did want to get Elijah Pierce's story out to the world. We wanted it to be accessible to young people. For me, most of my writing has been for adults, you know, whether it's a poem or a play or short story. Years ago, maybe I thought about writing a kid's book or a kid's story, but I learned so much from Carmella and then from this from this process. And you know, even as a poet, sometimes it might not translate in such a way that a child understands whatever that metaphor, whatever that simile might be. So really being able to break it down and make it really, really clear if a child understands that, you know, an adult understands it too and can appreciate it. Because even though this is a picture book and it's for kids, you know, preschool and up, up to, you know, third, fourth grade, it's still applicable. The story, the lessons, all the information is still something that I think adults can benefit from too. And the fact that it's kind of intergenerational anyway because it is a young child and his father and this older man and this whole family approach. So it's a book for everybody.

Laura Maylene Walter (20:54):
Yeah, no, absolutely. I would agree with that. And one thing I really liked about the book, which I think is fun for kids, is in addition to the conversation with Mr. Pierce and all the wonderful artwork and the boy experiencing this new world, it is a barbershop and he's getting a haircut. And so it's the sounds that you included on the page, like snip and buzz and edge. I thought that was really a fun way to kind of inject some lightheartedness and some texture of sound in the book, which is really great. And speaking of being appropriate for children, but also for all ages, I found it fascinating that while most of the story centers on just being in this wonderland of his artwork, they point to one of his pieces that represents the time that he was chased down by a mob and he was accused of committing a crime because of the color of his skin. And, and luckily when he was brought in, he was released. But it's still, you know, that's just one hint at maybe some harrowing reality for him. So I was wondering if you'd like to talk about that a bit, or even more broadly at the time in Columbus when Elijah Pierce was younger or creating his work, like what life would've been like in Columbus at that time for him?

Chiquita Mullins Lee (22:06):
Yeah, well Carmella, I have to say, you know, she really captured that idea of the sound effects of the barbershop. And that's been one of the things that people have really expressed about appreciation for. And discussions that we're having now around diversity, you know, so important. And these stories are so important to share because, you know, life wasn't easy for him. You know, growing up in Mississippi, you know, thinking about growing up on the farm and not really fitting in as far as his family is concerned and then being kind of an outcast because he had this whole artistic vision. And then just trying to live in a small town in Mississippi where, you know, he was certainly...his skin set apart as a possible target. We had to be very careful about how we rendered the story because we didn't want to make it a negative thing. We wanted to be truthful to what really happened. So again, trying to find a way to simplify it, but still keep the impact of it and still tell this powerful story. And then coming to Columbus in the 1920s, you know, moving up north, you know, away from the southern roots, but the idea of moving away from racism was not necessarily the case because you know, at that time in Columbus and you know, the things that are going in Columbus now, you know, still the challenges.

Laura Maylene Walter (23:17):
Yeah, yeah.

Chiquita Mullins Lee (23:17):
And having to navigate that, I think his faith carried him throughout all of that. And he talked about how God saved him from that mob. You know, at that point I believe that he felt like God carried him throughout his entire life so that he met challenges even when he came up north, he was able to deal with those things. And then of course, expressing those stories through his artwork, through his carvings, talking about what was going on in the White House during the Watergate period, talking about the civil rights situations, people like Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy and John F. Kennedy. And so telling those stories about race through his hands, through his carvings, and keeping people aware of what was going on. One of the things I'm going to say and speak, one of the things that was sort of a saying for him when people were coming to the barbershop was, "Have you heard the news?" You know, because that was always a topic in the barbershop, what was going on in the real world, and people coming in and you know, men in barbershops, just like women in beauty shops, <laugh> talking about what's happening in life and in the real world. And so he had a chance to talk about those things and then reprocess them through his artwork.

Laura Maylene Walter (24:20):
I was also really taken by one of his quotes that actually appears in the back matter of the book, where his career is discussed a bit more, but he apparently said about the time before he started getting some more recognition for his artwork, "I didn't even know I was an artist until they told me," which I found so fascinating. When you think about his story and how, I think in some ways it's a lesson for just doing what you are interested in and focused on. And he was just always more interested in carving animals out of wood than working on the farm. You know, he just followed what he was interested in, but also this concept of being a self-taught artist. And some people might feel like they need the outside world to like validate them as artists. I meet a lot of writers this way who are maybe uncertain about calling themselves writers. They feel like they need permission or something like that. So I'm wondering if you would both like to just talk about that concept a little more broadly about, you know, doing your work and how the outside perception of that work comes into play or not for you.

Carmella Van Vleet (25:21):
For me, I loved that quote too when I came across that, and it was something that we were trying to, I think, convey with the kids. This idea that you're an artist, you make art, you're an artist, you write, you're a writer. You know, when I go into schools and I do visits, you know, we talk about that. It's like he didn't have that validation, he just did it for himself. He did it for fun. But I think that's a good thing for kids to realize too, that there's value in just having fun. If you're enjoying it, then it's art and it's good, and that's okay. Yeah, I loved that quote because I think he didn't really get that validation as quote unquote "an artist" until much later in life. To him, it was just something that he did and he enjoyed doing. We just wanted to validate any experience that anybody, whether it be a child or an adult, if you're having fun and you're being creative, that counts.

Laura Maylene Walter (26:19):
Yeah, absolutely. And there's a purity to that too, right? Where you're not thinking about trying to publish your book and win a National Book Award and you're just writing the best book you can. And maybe something will come out of that.

Carmella Van Vleet (26:30):
On my Instagram, I do a lot of photography and it's just, for me, I call it "Today's mood". And I remember very distinctly, you know, somebody referring to me as a photographer and I was like, I'm not a photographer. Like, that's just something I like to do, you know? And, but it was that same sort of, what are you talking about? Like I don't, that's just, that's just for fun, <laugh>. But it was a great compliment and it was very validating to have somebody go, oh, I guess I am a photographer. Hadn't thought about that, you know, very much like Elijah, like, oh, I guess I'm an artist.

Laura Maylene Walter (27:04):
<Laugh>

Chiquita Mullins Lee (27:05):
Yeah, it, it always impressed me that Elijah Pierce came to sort of fame, I guess, or notoriety recognition later on in life. You know, he had spent all those years doing this work because he loved it. And even though he did travel around with his wife and they would preach and you know, talk about his carvings, he still didn't make that connection. I mean, he was self-taught, nobody taught him how to do this. And his uncle kind of showed him some things, but he just kind of played around with it and discovered, wow, I can use glitter to make it look like this and I can add some paint and I can add some colored drawings and colored pencils. And so he just kind of really discovered it as he did it. And it took form, you know, as he continued to do it. And then all of a sudden somebody's saying, wow, this is great, this is art. He's like, wow, this is art? <laugh>

Chiquita Mullins Lee (27:51):
And then getting that recognition when he was in his seventies, you know? And so it's good to know that you don't have to be this child prodigy, even though he probably was to some extent. I didn't recognize that, but, but you don't have to be that way. You can just do what you do and let the work speak for itself. I started a writing group. I created a writing group for my church, in my church a few years ago, and it's just a group of maybe five or six of us and we write and we for various holidays and commemorations and things like that. But we recently had a discussion about, am I a writer? Because most of them have just kind of started writing as adults. It's an adult group and most of them have started writing as adults. And like Carmella said, yeah, if you write, you are writer, you know, whether you have designs for publication or not. And you don't have to just put your words down on paper. You tell a story and then that's what you do. And if you want to develop it and take it in a different direction then do that. But it's just the act itself, I think there's a certain amount of power in the act itself, see where it takes you.

Laura Maylene Walter (28:50):
Well, speaking of making art, I want to ask each of you just really quickly before we run out of time, some individual questions about your work. And so Chiquita, you are so involved with writing in various forms and theater writing plays performing, and you work for the Ohio Arts Council. Maybe you would like to tell us a little bit about your job at the Ohio Arts Council, how you've managed to work these different types of art form into your life, including now a children's book. So can you tell us a bit about that. And anything you have coming up or, I know you mentioned the play in November, but anything else you would like to mention too that you're excited about?

Chiquita Mullins Lee (29:26):
Well, I've been with the Ohio Arts Council. I started out as a contractor in 2006 working on a program called Poetry Out Loud. It's the National Recitation Contest for high school students. And every state has a Poetry Out Loud program. And so I started out doing that and now we're moving into the 20th year. So 19 years for me with Poetry Out Loud and then 20 years just altogether. So that's one of the projects that I have. And there are several others. There's an arts partnership program where we provide funding to sort of community based arts organizations, nonprofits who have arts learning programs. And the idea is that we fund places like the symphony and the opera and the theater houses, but we also want to fund opportunities where students can learn about the arts and students of all ages, learning about the art forms, learning about artists discovering their own talents, just supporting the arts in that way.

Chiquita Mullins Lee (30:20):
Teachers, teaching artists, you know, across the board and providing from the cradle to the rest of your life, <laugh> learning about and, and practicing all the arts. Creative, writing, music, dance, all of them. So that's what we do with the Ohio Arts Council and that's my focus there. We also have this field trip program that we call the Big Yellow School Bus, which is another program that I administer and providing for field trips. As long as they want to go someplace in Ohio and they are a school or an arts organization and they wanna go and observe the symphony or theater piece or anything like that, then we like to provide that kind of work. I do try to juggle a lot of things. A lot of times I'm up late <laugh>.

Laura Maylene Walter (31:02):
You're busy <laugh>.

Chiquita Mullins Lee (31:05):
And when, when sleep is especially elusive, it's like, I guess I could go and turn on this computer, turn on this desktop, or turn on my laptop and see what I come up with.

Chiquita Mullins Lee (31:15):
And that's how a lot of the work gets done. But I enjoy it. And I do have several projects. There's a project I've been working on with the King Arts Complex called Past Present the Ohio Giants. And ironically there is a connection because this year they're focusing on Elijah Pierce, Ursel White Lewis, and Aminah Robinson. And the connection between Aminah and Elijah is Ursel because she was the one who kind of discovered Aminah and her art. She also took Elijah Pierce's art to the Columbus Museum of Art, and she did that for a lot of artists around town, sort of a benefactor in herself in taking the art to people around the city so they'd be aware of who these people were and supporting them as artists. She would do fashion shows and would have the artists taking pieces of Aminah Robinson's art and walking them down the runway while they're also dressed in these beautiful dresses and hats and gloves and all that.

Chiquita Mullins Lee (32:06):
So that's another project focusing on those three people. And well, just participated in this Underground Railroad whistle stop poetry event where three of us have gone to so far the Kelton House and actually reciting poetry from people written around the time of the turn of the century, wrote poetry about slavery, but then also presenting our own work about social justice and sort of diversity issues that are current day kind of things. And one last thing that I was part of Think Write Play, which was a festival of 10 minute plays dealing with issues of feminism. And that was presented by the Tipping Point Theater Company. So part of that.

Laura Maylene Walter (32:50):
You've got a lot going on, and I'm glad you mentioned Aminah Robinson actually, because we recently had Hanif Abdurraqib on the podcast and he mentioned the artist Aminah Robinson, that he, I suppose, had been able to go and, and watch her work or had some connection to that years ago. And so the fact that Aminah Robinson and Elijah Pierce have a connection and then we've got, you know, great writers like Hanif Abdurraqib and you. All these great artists connected together in Columbus. I think that's, it's really great. And I see the spirit of Elijah Pierce in all of your work, right? Just focusing on what you're interested in and what you want to do and what matters to you. So I think that's great. Carmella, tell us what, you have so many books out. Are there certain projects you'd like to mention that you're excited about? And I don't know if you two can talk about your next collaboration yet, but whatever you can share about that. I would be curious to hear.

Carmella Van Vleet (33:40):
I was just listening to Chiquita and thinking, man, I'm such a slacker. <laugh>.

Laura Maylene Walter (33:45):
No <laugh>.

Carmella Van Vleet (33:46):
I think I mentioned before, I've been doing this full-time for the last 20 years, used to be a teacher. So I kind of came from it as nonfiction. Was a lot of luck like teaching on paper. That's how I took on early projects. It was like, well, what was I interested in? I never took anything that I didn't find interesting because I thought, if I find it boring, my writing is gonna be boring. So I always like took on ideas that I liked. And then about 10 years ago, started working on middle grade fiction. So published three middle grade fiction. So far ELIZA BING IS (NOT) A BIG, FAT QUITTER; ELIZA BING IS NOT A STAR; and NOTHING IS LITTLE are my three recent ones. And then my, I have a middle grade nonfiction FROZEN IN TIME that focuses on ice cores. And a lot of that is based on the Byrd Polar and Climate Research Center at OSU, because I was fascinated by the idea that there is ancient ice in a freezer in Ohio.

Laura Maylene Walter (34:43):
Yeah, wow.

Carmella Van Vleet (34:43):
Down the road from my house. And I got to work with the Thompsons who are a husband and wife team who are two of the world's renowned experts on ice. And they were just so generous and kind and it was a lot of fun to go learn about ice and <laugh>. That was my first nonfiction project in a while. I'm currently working on another middle grade, which I'm not really talking about yet because it's just for me for the moment. And yes, Chiquita and I are collaborating on another picture book and I don't know if we can say a whole lot about it.

Laura Maylene Walter (35:14):
Yeah, I understand.

Carmella Van Vleet (35:16):
Mostly it's still pretty early in the process, but it is another folk artist.

Laura Maylene Walter (35:20):
Okay.

Chiquita Mullins Lee (35:21):
Who people should know about.

Laura Maylene Walter (35:23):
Okay, interesting.

Carmella Van Vleet (35:25):
That in some way that we are connected to.

Laura Maylene Walter (35:28):
Okay, we can leave it at that. That's fine. And Carmella, your website is really fun. You have a lot of fun facts about yourself, like you collect Pez dispensers and that your record is riding 18.5 rollercoasters in one day. Is that right?

Laura Maylene Walter (35:43):
Can you explain the .5?

Carmella Van Vleet (35:45):
When our kids were little, we would go every year to Cedar Point. And my oldest is a diehard rollercoaster person. So this just happened to be a particularly good day where we didn't have a lot of crowds and we were able to ride a lot of rides. The park was like an hour from closing and we had gone multiple times on the Top Thrill Dragster, which I do believe is now something else. But the best part of that ride is getting launched out at 125 miles an hour or whatever. So we got launched out and you go up over the hill and we didn't clear the hill. And what happens is you just, you roll back. So we got to experience that and it was awesome.

Laura Maylene Walter (36:26):
Was it? Okay, because I've heard about it and it sounds terrifying to me. But I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Carmella Van Vleet (36:32):
It was awesome because you're just falling backwards and so there's that fear and anticipation and then, and then you get shot out again, which is the best part of, for me...that's the best part of the ride was, you know, that 3, 2, 1, bam and you're just, you know, you're off. So that's where the half came in, that we didn't clear the hill and had the rollback. And then after that we were like, we're done. Because it can't get any better, <laugh> can't get better than that. And we went home. So that's...

Laura Maylene Walter (37:00):
Amazing.

Carmella Van Vleet (37:01):
I am pretty sure now at this point, I would not be able to do 18 roller coasters in a day.

Laura Maylene Walter (37:06):
That's a lot. Yeah.

Carmella Van Vleet (37:08):
It was a lot.

Laura Maylene Walter (37:09):
So a children's book author and a thrill seeker <laugh>.

Carmella Van Vleet (37:15):
<laugh> Like I said, my son was, and I was the one who got stuck with it.

Laura Maylene Walter (37:19):
<Laugh> Stuck with being forced into thrill seeking, yeah.

Chiquita Mullins Lee (37:23):
Yes. I was forced into thrill seeking <laugh>.

Laura Maylene Walter (37:26):
Well is there anything else either of you would like to leave with our listeners about either Elijah Pierce or about your experience of working on this book? Maybe what it means to you to have brought his story to a wider audience, including children.

Chiquita Mullins Lee (37:40):
Such an inspiration. You know, he's been an inspiration for me, even before I knew I was going do anything with him. The very first time I saw his work at the Columbus Museum of Art, I thought, wow, this man is amazing. And then to have what I feel like is the privilege to have done this work for him, on him, and maybe even through him <laugh>, you know, there's this sort of sense and Carmella and I have talked about this sort of having been, you know, led and, and chosen to do this story. You know, there's that statue of him on East Long Street and whenever something wonderful happens about the book, it's an emotional thing for me. And it's kind of like going drive by and say <laugh>, sometimes I do. You know, it just really means a whole lot because I resonate with being a southern woman and him being a southern man, being a person of faith, him being a man of faith, and just, I've heard that he had this charm about him. He was really this charming, wonderful person. I never got a chance to meet him. I came to Columbus after he'd already passed away, but I just feel such a strong connection with him and just really feel privileged to be able to tell his story.

Carmella Van Vleet (38:42):
I agree. It feels in a lot of ways, and Jennifer says the same thing, there's been a lot of things that just fell into place very smoothly. We wonder sometimes if that just wasn't orchestrated somehow, you know, like what resonated with me so much with the play and with just Elijah was the storytelling. As a children's author, that's my calling, that storytelling. And that's what he was, he just told it in a different way. So that's how I looked at it. When I approached that, I'm telling this story about another storyteller and he did it in a, in a unique way and I felt connected to him. Like he talks about carving when he was a kid and I remember writing as a kid. So those things just kind of carried with me. Yeah. And when I passed on East Long, I always wave to Elijah Pierce <laugh>. And I always, when I do school visits and I show the statue, I always tell them, okay, if you're on your way home from the museum or whatever.

Laura Maylene Walter (39:40):
Listeners, I'll be linking to photos of Elijah Pierce's artwork and the statue and all sorts of things. So check the show notes, listeners. Thank you both so much. I thought we could end with one of Elijah Pierce's quotes. This is actually a quote that appears on the back cover of your book. He said, "Your life is a book and every day is a page." So I think that's a beautiful way to end. Thank you both for being a part of my page today. And everyone, go out and read, YOU GOTTA MEET MR. PIERCE. Thank you both so much.

Laura Maylene Walter (40:23):
Page Count is presented by the Ohio Center for the Book at Cleveland Public Library. If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, rate, and leave a review for Page Count wherever you get your podcast. Learn more online or find a transcript of this episode at ohiocenterforthebook.org. Follow us on Instagram @ohiocenterforthebook or find us on Facebook. If you'd like to get in touch, email ohiocenterforthebook@cpl.org and put 'podcast' in the subject line. Thanks for listening, and we'll be back in two weeks for another chapter of Page Count.